You mentioned one of them in your post - “You don’t have to submit to an abusive husband.” I always hear this qualifier added to discussions of submission, but what I would like to know is *where in Scripture do you get that idea* and *how do you define abuse*.

One basic premise of the wife-only submission/husband as authority position is that it is the “Biblical position”. Yet I see so many extra-biblical teaching added to it.

In a healthy marriage like you and i have, these issues don’t even really come into play. Our husbands treat us as equals in the marriage relationship and involve us in decision-making. But husbands who are patriarchal in view don’t necessarily do that. Husbands who are driven by selfishness and foolishness don’t do that. And how are their wives to respond? Here are two scenarios - i would like to know how a wife-only-submission person such as yourself would advise someone to hanle these situations.

Because they’re not outright abuse, but they’re certainly unwise.

Scenario 1: John and Sarah are struggling about how to handle Sarah’s family. Sarah believes her dad is an unsafe person to have her kids around because he has a temper and is known to yell demeaning, hurtful things to the people around him when this happens. Plus her parents aren’t the most careful drivers in the world so she is nervous about the kids riding in their cars.

John doesn’t see what the big deal is about her dad. “So he yells sometimes. Everyone gets mad. I don’t see any reason why we can’t leave our kids there for the weekend while we go on vacation. Your sister leaves her kids there all the time and they’re fine.” He thinks the kids will be safe in their cars too. Generally, he is not a reliable person when it comes to assessing safety of others and has a proven track record of disregarding things like this to the detriment of the people involved.

Sarah adamantely does not want her kids unsupervised with her dad b/c she knows that he will get angry at them for no good reason (such as them spilling some food on the floor) and insult and demean them cruelly (”You are such a burden. Only babies spill food. I don’t know why I agreed to watch you two, you’re nothing to be but trouble. And your parents obviously didn’t do a good job raising you if you are such screw-ups.”) Plus she has witnessed the poor driving patterns of her parents and has good reason (in her mind) to be concerned.

They have no other family or trustworthy friends to leave their kids with for the weekend - it’s either Sarah’s parents or no one.

John tells Sarah that the kids have to stay at her parents’ and that they need to go on this trip because he has been looking forward to it for a long time (nevermind the fact that he planned and booked it without consulting Sarah and without thinking through childcare arrangements).

**What should Sarah do? And how do you back it up Scripturally.**

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2. This time it’s a money issue. Sean is a spender, Jessica is a saver. She works really hard to budget well for her family and spend within their means. Sean doesn’t care - he thinks that because he earns more than Jessica, he has the right to spend ‘his money’ how he sees fit. So that means that they are in a fair amount of credit card debt and have no money in emergency savings because he spends so much extra per month. Jessica has talked to him about this issue to no avail. He tells her that he is the final authority in the home and that he is ultimately responsible for how money is handled, so she needs to back off.

She needs to buy the kids new shoes, clothes, and supplies for school along with groceries. Once again, there is just $50 left in the checking account because Sean spent $300 on a new gadget or gizmo without asking (and when she talked to him about it, he didn’t think it was a big deal - ‘just put the kids’ things on a credit card and we’ll pay it off with my bonus’ he says.)

What sort of accountability can she bring to the relationship? In wife-only submission, she can make her thoughts and feelings known but after that she has to leave the matter in her husband’s hands or else if things are really out of hand, bring in elders from the church to hold him accountable.

She herself is powerless in her own home b/c she is not considered to have any authority over how things go. Her husband has authority, church leaders have authority, but she does not.

In practice, I suspect that your marriage and my marriage look pretty similar in terms of how decisions are made and how we relate to each other. We are both in healthy marriages with men who appreciate the strength of their wives’ personalities and giftings.

The most common criticism I have heard to mutual submission is “But what if you are at an impasse and disagree? Someone has to be the deal-breaker and it should be the husband.”

My response to that is that I believe in ‘inaction until unity’. If we are facing a decision where you cannot agree (hasn’t happened yet), then after talking together you would set aside time for individual and together fasting and prayer. I absolutely believe that our God, who is God who desires unity in marriage, will work through both spouses being in ultimate submission to Him and show them how to move forward. It might turn out that God convicts the wife to submit and follow what her husband desires even though it is not her prefrence. It might be that God convicts the husband to submit to what his wife desires even though it is not his preference. Or God might show them a path of compromise they had not seen before.

In any case, I believe God will work to help the spouses have unity of mind and purpose if they are both committed to submitting their will to Him.

It’s not so much a list of when you were submissive as it is the mindset that God has called you to that role.

Do you think it’s possible to be submissive, but never actually submit. That is a mindset that is never practiced? Theoretical question.

Now that you have me thinking about it, I know three types of Christians. The first group is very conservative and very submissive in lots of trivial everyday stuff. The second group say they practice submission but can’t remember the last time they submitted, and the third group don’t practice submission. I don’t poll people about this, so there’s probably more out there than that.

I’m trying to think of an example of my own, but regardless of we do or don’t say we do, in reality it usually works in favor of whoever feels the strongest about the subject. In the case where we’re tied, the status quo seems to win. One of us just can’t go about changing our existing situation when the other is so much against it. I guess in the situation of public vs private schools, there is no status quo, but in five years of marriage perhaps we haven’t had any true forks in the road.

And I’m certainly not perfect at the concept. I struggle with it, even as I acknowledge its appropriateness.

Maybe a recent example of the rental properties we own. I have wanted to sell a few of them for quite some time. He thought it wiser to keep them since in theory the value would appreciate. Now, we have actually decided to sell a couple, but he still does not feel it’s wise to divest all our holdings. I am not completely on board with that.

We do not have children right now, but school might turn out to be another example. I am a big proponent of public schools. He feels quite strongly that any children we have should go to private schools. I might just end up submitting in this area.

Of course, both those examples are after much thought and discussion. I didn’t just say OK to whatever he thought best without having a conversation (or two, or a thousand) on the subject to do our best to come to a joint decision.

Also, the concept is more of a perspective and attitude much of the time. It’s not so much a list of when you were submissive as it is the mindset that God has called you to that role.

I still don’t quite understand what submission actually means to you. (I understand everything it isn’t). Can you provide an example or two where you practiced submission? I think that might illustrate what types of things you submit for and what you don’t.